#131—Marcus Collins: Culture: The Hidden Force Shaping Behavior and Belonging

Dr. Marcus Collins is an award-winning marketer and cultural translator, the former chief strategy officer at Wieden+Kennedy, New York, and a marketing professor at the Ross School of Business, University of Michigan. 

Marcus knows how to build an enthusiastic culture around brands and products  and services. He ran digital strategy for the pop star Beyoncé, worked on iTunes + Nike sports music initiatives at Apple, including Beats by Dr. Dre. He is an inductee into the American Advertising Federation’s Advertising Hall of Achievement and a recipient of the Thinkers50 Radar Distinguished Achievement Award for the idea most likely to shape the future of business management. His strategies and creative contributions have led to the launch and success of McDonald’s cultural resurgence, Google’s “Real Tone” technology, and the “Made In America” music festival.

Marcus’ work centers squarely that linkage between brand and culture. In this podcast, we dive deep into highlights from his best-selling book, For The Culture: The Power Behind What We Buy, What We Do, and Who We Want to Be. 

 We discuss: 

• The impact of culture on consumption, and how businesses can leverage this to influence behaviors 
• How people align behaviors with self-identity—making ideological alignment a key factor in brand adoption (think Apple, Nike) 
• Some key tactics—such as targeting fringe groups to create network effects that impact behaviors organically—to reach more audiences 
• The role that beliefs, artifacts, language, and behaviors play in shaping culture 

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Episode Timeline:
00:00—Highlight from today's episode
00:49—Introducing Marcus + the topic of today’s episode
03:45—What's the definition of culture?
05:00—How and why do brands like Nike use culture as a tool for their customer base
08:23—The three systems that define culture
12:58—How organizations can successfully build internal cultural identity
16:31—Creating an inclusive identity
20:11—Leveraging network effects and cultural production
23:32—Finding early adopters for cultural diffusion
25:05—Brand loyalty vs. transactional relationships
27:35—Building a cultural movement and avoiding the targeting trap
30:31—How can people follow you and continue learning from you?
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Additional Resources:
Personal website: www.marctothec.com
Link to book: For The Culture
Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/in/marctothec
X: marctothec

Thank you to our guest. Thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.

Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

Transcript

 Kaihan Krippendorff: Marcus Collins. Marcus, thank you so much for making the time to be here. I know there's a lot of demands on your time, and I appreciate you being here with us.
 
 Marcus Collins: I'm super grateful to be here. Thanks for having me.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Where are you dialing in from?
 
 Marcus Collins: From Ann Arbor, Michigan, which is beautiful at the moment. The colors of the trees are changing, the air is crisp, but still a little bit warm. We had to sun it out. I mean, I'm all smiles right now. That's all. Our team were doing better, otherwise.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Right. Right. Gotcha. Yeah. I hear there's a heatwave coming towards you as well. Awesome. So there's so much great content that you have out. I mean, definitely your book for the culture, definitely all the podcasts that you do, there's stuff on YouTube. So we're gonna assume that readers have access to all of that. We'll just play around, did double click on a few things, within that context.
 
 Marcus Collins: That's a good idea.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Cool. I want I wanna start off with the definition, like, what's the definition of culture, and, you know, you talk about culture. We'll just be coming from this Latin term, Colera to cultivate. And you talk about Emily Durkheim and her definition of culture. So just first to ground us on what is the definition of culture that you're coming from?
 
 Marcus Collins: Yep. So I look at it through a sociological lens. And, you know, those early scholars, the sociology be it Marks, Weber, Durkheim. You know, these guys, they studied culture by observing religion. And Amil DuraKind would talk about culture as a system of conventions and expectations that demarcate who we are and govern what people like us do with the system.
 
 That's anchored in our identity. And because of who we are, we see the rule of certain way. And because we see the rule of certain way, we navigate life accordingly, and then we express ourselves through shared work. The system or systems of systems that make up our culture, become sort of the governing operating system that informs where we go, what we do, how we style ourselves, just about every facet of social living. And this force is just so it's so unparalleled in its disproportionate ability to influence us that it's almost shocking how little time we spend actually studying it.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: That's awesome. So I wanna double click on that in a moment. Because you mentioned systems, and that wasn't a random list. You lay out 3 specific systems, which I wanna get into. But just to frame it first, maybe you could just tell us about just give us an example of a successful effort to create or tap into a culture.
 
 I don't know if it's your work with Beyonce or whether it is the beats or 1 of those 2 or something else, just to bring us into the world of a successful creating of a shaping of a culture around a beat.
 
 Marcus Collins: I think, you know, there are few examples But just for the sake of Clari, I think 1 of the best examples is probably Nike. And this is work that I didn't do, but it's just 1 that that is salient enough and ubiquitous enough, pervasive enough that we can go, oh, yeah. I know what that means. So Nike believes that every human body is an athlete. Big, small, short, tall, or all athletes.
 
 And the only thing keeping us from realizing our best athletic self is us. So what does Nike tell the world? Just do it. Right? Nike doesn't talk to everybody.
 
 Nike talks to athletes. Or maybe the athlete in all of us. But they talk to athletes in a very specific nuanced way. They never talk about their value proposition to their sneakers that you run faster, to help higher, they're more comfortable that the leather sourced from Italy somewhere None of those things ever. Instead, they speak to an ideology, a belief system.
 
 And oftentimes, they identify sort of the contradictions that exist in the Orthodoxy, the sort of the tensions that exist in the status quo. They go, well, why is that okay? If we believe that every human buys an athlete, then athletes should be doing x, y, and z, and they sort of subvert the Orthodoxy. This is how brands are able to leverage the power of culture to get people to adopt behavior because the people who see the world similarly go, that's my brand. And they use the brand, not just for their functionality, but they use the brand to realize their identity project, to project who they are to the world, and air goal make their culture material.
 
 So this is how a brand, a commercial entity, could leverage the power of culture, identifying people based on it, self identify I'm a hooper. I'm a runner. Or you're a cyclist, or a gymnast, or a swimmer, whatever the case may be. How you identify you see the world a certain way. Right?
 
 And they engage people based on the way they see the world, their artifacts, behaviors, and language of what it means to be that person or that moniker and how the cultural production works. Now I often say this to marketers or executives in general. You know, we spend so much time thinking about people in their demographic boxes because it makes life very easy, like to say, you know, women 24 to 35 or Gen z. And go, well, you talk about a group of people who share an exterior commonality, but it's not the veneers. It's not the hardware that governs us.
 
 It's the software. Our beliefs and ideologies are identity. That governs what people like us do. For instance, which Alex is more likely to run, which Alex is more committed to running. Alex who is a gen z, demography, Alex who likes to run psychographics, or Alex who is a runner, identity.
 
 Surely the latter because people like me do something like this. Because of her, his, their identity, they therefore run. And that's a powerful distinction to make.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: I love it. No. This idea of identity. There's 1 of my favorite books is Martissein, who is a Nobel prize winner of Physics, He wrote a book called identity and violence, and he kinda links to that violence comes from this different identities, it can't exist. But if, you know, if we're on the opposite side of a battlefield, but we're both dentists or we're both fathers.
 
 Right? We can activate a different identity that draws a circle around the 2 of us So to talk to us about these systems so that we can understand because you've used terms like beliefs and ideologies and artifacts and behaviors and languages, but in in your book, you really break it down into 3 distinct systems could just help us to look, with system 1, how we see the world?
 
 Marcus Collins: Absolutely. So raymond Williams is just this profound cultural scholar. He's since passed, but his work is just watershed, groundbreaking as we think about the study of culture and consumption. And raymond Williams to talk about culture in these 3 different systems, and it's anchored in our identity. And the first system is beliefs and ideologies.
 
 Right? This is the way we see the world. The beliefs are the truths that we hold about the world. Like, what we believe is true, and our ideologies are the stories that we tell ourselves about the world based on those truths. And the truth of the matter is that The world isn't as objective as we would like it to be.
 
 The world is subjective based on our meaning making lenses or our cultural frames. That's why for some, a cow's leather, for others, the d e, for some, it's dinner. Which 1 is it? It's all those things, depending on who you are and how you see the world. For some, Orug is the core.
 
 For others, the souvenir. For some, it's a place of worship. Which 1 is it? It's all those things, depending on who you are and how you see the world. And because of who we are and how we see the world, we dare or navigate life accordingly.
 
 That second system, it's a shared way of life. You know, if you think that a cow is a dede, then you're not eating hamburgers. You know, you're not eating beef burgers. You know? Your behaviors are by products of your beliefs the way you see the world.
 
 And, you know, the idea of, you know, the way we see the world, the shared way of life constitutes the artifacts that we've done. These are the human made objects. That we use, like, clothes and glasses and all the other, you know, tangible things that we use to make our culture material. Then there is behavior. This is the ceremonies, the traditions, the social norms, the unwritten rules, the things that we do, the rituals that we undergo every day.
 
 These rituals are byproducts of what we believe reality is. Those rituals often are so ingrained in us that we do them without thinking. You know, someone says, you know, all the time, if I'm checking this word at the at the airport, and they go, have a good trip. Go, you too. Me oh, sorry.
 
 I didn't have a flight.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Right. Right. Right. Right.
 
 Marcus Collins: Like, it's just so ingrained that that that response is so ingrained, which leads to the other way by which we share a way of life, which is the language. It's a shorthand. These are the vernaculars, the colloquialisms. It's being able to understand what these things mean, these don't understand what these mean. These short hands are a way by which we demonstrate that you're 1 of us.
 
 It's the difference of me saying that, oh, man. Those headphones are bad. And you know that I mean Michael Jackson bad as opposed to I guess, Michael Jackson. But you know what I mean? Right here, the idea that you know what I mean.
 
 You know the intent because you understand the nuances in in the language. That that is a that is a byproduct. Of cultural subscription. So that's the second system. And then because of who we are, we see the world a certain way.
 
 We navigate life accordingly, and then we express ourselves through shared work, which is the third system, what maybe Williams will refer to as cultural production. That's literature, film, music, potery, poetry, what we eat, brands and branded products. Let's become ways by which we sort of peacock ourselves to the world because these works, these productions become outward expressions of who we are. Like, they're outward expressions of inward beliefs. In the alchemy of those systems, who we are, how we see the world, shared way of life, and shared expression through cultural production that alchemy systems make up our culture, which is the most powerful external force on human behavior, full stop.
 
 Mhmm. Mhmm.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Yeah. So I'm listening to this from 2 perspectives from the external perspective, the market building or understanding the culture around a brand or product, but also internally an organization that, you know you know, IBM people used to dress a certain way. I think they always have to wear a hat, you know, if the FBI. They always dressed in, like, the black suit with this with the small ties. So they you have these artifacts and language and there's vernacular.
 
 Is there an organization that you can think of that does this well internally?
 
 Marcus Collins: Yeah. I mean, you've just laid out what my second book is all about. The first book is about consumer culture, consumption. The next book is to your point about internal culture. Indeed.
 
 You know, there are expectations of what people like us do. You know, if you work it, I don't know, Applebee's, you're expected to wear a flare. Right? You know, if you work in in advertising and someone shows up for an interview when a 3 piece suit, you go of me and hiring her because she's not 1 of us. Right?
 
 The artifacts that we've done become ways by which you express membership. And when people look like us and dress like us and talk like us and act like us, we go, oh, they must be 1 of us. And as a result, we find ourselves more connected to them. And this is really what culture is about. I mean, culture is a meaning making system.
 
 As Rayman Williams would say, it's a way by which we look at a world or at the world that is random and full of meaninglessness. Right? Like, nothing has inherent meaning. We see things that we give it meaning that, like, you know, red is a wavelength that, you know, causes your eye to see a certain color, but we see red at a stop sign or an intersection red means stop. And it's red inherently mean stop?
 
 No. But we have negotiated such. Right? So The world around us is inherently meaningless, and it's through our cultural lenses that we make sense of the world, that we make meaning of the world, and air go, we navigate in the world accordingly. These same mechanisms that are at play when we are in the shopping aisle.
 
 We're in the grocery store or the same mechanisms that are at play when we are in our organizations because it helps us make meaning of the world and find who's with us, who's against us, who's 1 of us, and who's not. And our brain whose job it is to keep us alive by making predictions. It's a survival machine as it were that our brain finds safety in people like us. That's why we gravitate towards people like us. So when organizations have a salient culture inside of it, people end up bonding, and they work better together.
 
 And if they don't buy, they go no. You're not 1 of us, man. You don't belong here. Either they don't flood. They belong.
 
 Or people feel like they don't belong either or those people don't stay very long. You know, think about companies like elfcosmetics is a great example of this. You know, elfcosmetics, this is a 20 year old company that is punching way above its weight just considering the impact that it's had. And by and large, it's been driven by their culture. They have their own isms.
 
 You know? You know, they say anything's elping possible. You know? This is like, we hear them all. They use elping in everything that they do.
 
 It's a part of their vernacular. And when you talk like an l 4 and you go, oh, you must work an l 4. You're 1 of 1 of us. And those things go a very long way because it helps create the shortcuts that lead to greater work production.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Yeah. Yeah. I'm thinking about companies I've peaked in, like, in Vertex pharmaceuticals. They call them Vertexians. And if Vertexians act a certain way and they represent a certain so 2 2 broad questions that come out of this, maybe we'll get both of them.
 
 1 is the first 1 I thought maybe it's easier to answer is Use the example of Nike, and I'm also thinking of Apple. And if the identity is this it is this and not this. You are in and you are not. It seems that somehow Apple and Nike because Nike is saying everyone's an athlete. Right?
 
 So it's not a distinction between you and you. It is distinction between you on the couch and you. How do you reconcile that? How do you create an inclusive culture that still is defines what is and what isn't?
 
 Marcus Collins: Yeah. I mean, I think Nike in in its ethos is saying that we're all athletes, but only some of us are willing to realize it. And those are the people who should be celebrating. You know, at 1 time Nike, almost exclusively, celebrated, you know, the greatest among us. Right?
 
 The Michael Jordan's of the world. You know, the best athletes that were out there from the Boo Jackson's to you name them. And then around the was that 20 the like, the mid 2 thousands, you know, Nike started to celebrate the athlete in us and saying that greatness isn't a rare DNA strand. It exists in all of us, at least for those who are willing to realize it. You could probably remember the spot where the overset the overweight, heavy set young boys running down what looks like a sort of a a midwestern flat plain road at night.
 
 And it's just running. It's just running. There's a narration saying, you know, greatness is in all of us. Especially for those who are willing to go after it. And you could see yourself here.
 
 Maybe you don't see yourself in Lebron James, or Kobe Bryant, or Michael Jordan. But do see yourself in this kid and go, yeah. I can do that. And the difference to your point is, that's difference between Marcus who's on the college watch Netflix. And Marcus who goes out and run.
 
 Nike is for the latter.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Yeah. No. I love that. My dad, he wrote a piece, I don't know, a while ago, and he was talking about just identity is that we have different identities in the morning. I'm a father cooking breakfast and the later on, I'm a commuter, and then I'm a consultant, and then I'm a patron of a restaurant.
 
 Right? It's we have different identities. So I guess that they are activating an identity within us. That's beautiful.
 
 Marcus Collins: That's right. I mean I mean, I love I love I love the way your dad frames that because he's absolutely right. I mean, the truth that matters that we are multiple identities all at once. You know? Like, I'm a professor.
 
 That is an individual reference, only by which is self identify. I mean, if fraternity, if I made a sigma, that's a group reference by which I self identify. I'm a father to little girls, a girl dad. Right? That's an abstract reference by which I self identify, and all of those monitors are at play in me at the same time.
 
 And they create some tension. Sometimes they create some contradiction. Sometimes they create, you know, the greater output than the sum of its parts. Right? These things are constantly all within this.
 
 And based upon these different ways in which you self identify, we are constantly negotiating with these different identities internally to decide what's acceptable for people like us. Right? What we might say, you know, at the bar with our friends may be different than what we'd say in the church sanctuary with the exact same friends. We're negotiating what's acceptable, and as a result, we behave accordingly, that process, that legitimation process is mediated by our cultural subscription.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Yes. And it seems that some cultures kind of self police more than other others. It seems like we have we don't have direct control. 1 of my favorite lines in your book is it's very likely that the last new restaurant you visited or the last product you purchased was not directly due to an ad you saw In some cases, you may have not even seen an ad for the show. Instead, you heard about it from someone you know, someone you trust.
 
 So if we don't have as a company, they're trying to create an identity, increase willingness to pay, creating identity internally can increase willingness to sell employee engagement, loyalty. That's our value. And we don't have direct control because I think the mindset is usually a communication plan, let's blast out messages, what messages work, what channels, and just blast it out, how do you approach this when you don't have direct communication? Or your community direct communication doesn't matter as much.
 
 Marcus Collins: Yeah. I mean, the spray and pray model has been sort of how we have been conditioned to do marketing communications. Here's a market with a big market opportunity. We're gonna blast them with messages and prayerfully god willing in Shala. They see it.
 
 And even better, if they see it, maybe they'll consume. They'll take action. But we know that to be in a efficient way of doing things, but it certainly isn't effective. As to your point, a lot of the things well, I'd argue most of the things that we buy is it because we saw an ad, a marketer, or a brand told us to the how this is why this is so great. Instead, all our friends were doing You know, our friends will say, hey.
 
 You need to be watching the bear. You go, everyone's telling me to watch the bear. So I guess I wanna watch the bear. Not because the ads were so compelling, but because people like me do something like this. And as a result, we do it.
 
 This is the thing. This is why culture is so powerful. Because there because we see the world through cultural lenses, and we adopt behaviors in an effort to stay in good standing censorship with our people. So for marketers, for brands, for strategist, that are trying to activate people when they don't see our messages, and that's not influencing our behavior is to activate network effects, by activating network effects, by finding the people who see the world the way you do. You activate the people who see the world the way you do, and you communicate the gospel.
 
 We believe this. We believe every human buys an athlete. And the athlete hears that no yes. Totally. I'm gonna use that spot, that messaging, that communication not to promote Nike because I love them so much.
 
 But rather, I may use that communications to communicate my own identity. That's when the work, the messaging becomes cultural production. And it begins to reverberate within the population of people. Right? It's like people trust people more than any form of marketing communication, more of the television print, out of home radio, native ads.
 
 In fact, we trust strangers. More than we trust marketers, which should be super sobering. Mhmm. For anyone bringing in the market as a marketer. Like, we trust sexy level 24 from Denver, more than we trust the brand we think about buying from on Amazon.
 
 Right? We trust people. So the idea then is how do we activate people to go tell other people? Because nothing draws a crowd like a crowd, and that requires finding the co the collective of the willing, the people most likely to adopt behavior, and that's people who see the world the way you do.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Fascinating. So I guess where my mind immediately goes, if I'm thinking about doing this internally, it’s kind of like a that adoption curve, the finding, the early adopters, and then and working that. Right?
 
 Marcus Collins: That's absolutely right. Mean, this is what I do. This is exactly how I illustrated it in when I teach. You know, you take the Gaussian curve, Carl Gauss who postulated the distribution curve as we know it. So much so that we call it the normal curve.
 
 Because in kid's estimation, this is the most accurate depiction of how value behaviors, innovations, propagating a population. And what we typically do as business folks strategist in particular, you know, we go where the market opportunity is. Most of the people are in the middle, so blast the middle. And the truth that matters that that is noisy, it's expensive, and it's saturated. And most people can't tell the difference between you and somebody else.
 
 The idea though is activate the people on the fringes because those people are typically being ignored. No one's talking to them. No 1 sees them. And when you preach the gospel that they believe, not only do they consume, not only do they take action, but they will use your brand and go communicate their identity, and something magical happens, the network effect is activated. And everything we know everything we know of that is cool today was once weird and French.
 
 Everything that is now normal was once wacky and became normal, became popular, by its pop propagation into the population.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: So let me follow that path. So we, you know, find the early adopters, the fringe. You know, we jump the chasm as Jeff Moore would say. We get that full adoption And in our last podcast, we had Rebecca Hampka's on and we started getting to this, but we didn't get time to go to it. And we were talking about why do cities continue scaling and scaling and scaling but companies, brands, products, they scale, and they decline.
 
 And what she started saying was it's because if you're from you're from we're from Detroit. Is that right? Or right. I mean, you are Detroit, and so you will fight in Detroit, separated. You will fight for Detroit.
 
 Right? But you won't fight for GE appliances. Right? So does this help explain maybe why?
 
 Marcus Collins: And it's right. Because in most cases, we have transactional based relationships with brands. And brands have fortified that relationship. Brands, instead of telling us about what they believe, they tell us about the value propositions. You go, okay.
 
 Cool. You're razor sharper. I'll buy your razor. Until there's a sharper razor, then I'm out of here. It's not a part of my identity because you have only engaged me through, like, categorical lens.
 
 Even when we do segmentation, we go, you know, we're looking for people who want chunkier soup. Then you go, okay. Fine. You know, you engage me through that lens. But if someone has chunkier soup than you do, then I'm gonna go buy theirs.
 
 But when you engage people at an ideological level, you transcend the category. You transcend the value propositions, and now you engage me from an identity based perspective. And that's how cities are. I'm a detractor through and through. Even though I lived in New York for almost 8 years, I would wear a detractor Tiger's hat every single day.
 
 As a way of projecting my identity. And there are a few brands that have that level of connection with me. Right? Like, you know, I'm an Apple guy. I used to work at Apple.
 
 I love Apple products. Right? And even though I have enough wherewithal to say that, look, Samsung let's say let's say Android based products. Right? Android based devices, I I would say they the all the features and benefits that are in Apple devices were probably in Android based devices Right.
 
 A year prior.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Right.
 
 Marcus Collins: Right. Right. Totally.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Right.
 
 Marcus Collins: But you never catch me dead with an Android device in my pocket. Why? Because I'm an Apple guy. It's a part of my identity. And therefore, I consume as a way of making my cultural identity.
 
 Yeah. Material.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Yeah. I love it. Okay. So many questions I we're reaching the top of our time. I'm gonna see a kind of the 15 questions.
 
 1 question I think is the link between the question before this 1 and the question I just had. How do we link from the early to the late adoption and create that full curve of identity. And III like you tell us about the this Texas Sharp Shooter fallacy because I think that many corporate strategists, you know, we give logic and numbers, rationale, and tell us Why that doesn't work?
 
 Marcus Collins: Yeah. Well, I mean, the Texas structured analysis is the idea that it's easier to draw a target on something once you shot holes into the building. Right? It's like it's post rationalizing something that happened. This is why we use science.
 
 We use science to empirically identify causeality and how those things affect what we see. And the broader point in in in all of this is that if we understand humanity, the underlying physics of humanity, why things are, the way they are, why do people behave, the way they behave, then we can create interventions, exogenous shocks to the system, they get people to act in a more predictable way. We can't get to a hundred percent because that's not reality. Right? There's randomness in the world.
 
 We can't get to a hundred percent, but it would increase the likelihood by removing luck from lucky to likely by studying and understanding the behavioral sciences, why people do what they do. They create opportunities for us to activate them accordingly as opposed to post rationalizing the things that only work because of happenstance.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Got it. Got it. So we need to understand that. Then then what is what is effective then at what I'm kinda hearing you say is we gotta get them to believe and then give them the rationale for why that's the right belief as opposed to give the rationale to believe So how do we get money for?
 
 Marcus Collins: I would say to get people to get things propagating across the normal curve to just to propagate across the distribution curve, I'd say to start with the people who are most likely to move, mean, the job of business is to get people to adopt behavior, right, to buy, to download, to watch, subscribe, to read. And the idea then is that, well, let's find the people that are most inclined to move. And we activate them, not because of our value propositions, but because of our shared belief. And when we activate them, they'll go activate other people as a way of producing social solidarity. As a way of activating what MilDirk had referred to as Collective Vefescence to find community, to find themselves in community, and they'll will do the hard work for us.
 
 They'll will do the convincing. They'll do the segmentation for us because we have connected with them in a way that transcends the category and speaks to who they truly are, not the demographic boxes that we typically put people in, but who they truly are. Love it.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Yeah. I love it. Okay. This is great. I mean, it's so much more to unpeel in the book, and III really enjoyed reading it in addition to buying the book, For the culture. The power behind what we buy, what we do, and who we want to be. How else can people connect with you and learn from you?
 
 Marcus Collins: Or you can find me on across the social web and all the social channels. At mark to the marctothec.com.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Love it. Marcus, thank you so, so much for doing the work that you do and taking some time to unpack it for us. Super grateful. Thank you.