#116— Cathy Hackl: Expanding Our Actual and Virtual Reality with Spatial Computing

Cathy Hackl is a globally-recognized tech & gaming exec, futurist, & speaker focused on spatial computing, virtual worlds, augmented reality, AI, & gaming platforms strategy. She’s the co-CEO of Spatial Dynamics, a spatial computing and AI solutions company. She is also a top tech voice on LinkedIn, and a fun fact, she was the first person ever to open the NASDAQ market in the metaverse with an avatar. 

Cathy is a powerful voice on spatial computing and immersive technology, guiding businesses on integrating these into their product portfolios and business models, having worked with companies like Nike, Ralph Lauren, Walmart, & Louis Vuitton. In this conversation, we dive deep into these topics, narrowing in on key insights from her upcoming May 2024 book, SPATIAL COMPUTING: An AI-Driven Business Revolution. 

In this episode, Cathy shares with us: 

• The definition of spatial computing, and how it’s not just a new emerging technology, but rather an expansion of computing as we have known it  
• Spatial computing’s interrelation with the metaverse, and the increasingly blurring boundaries between what we knew of as the “virtual world,” and our physical reality 
• How AI is not just an addition to computing, but a convergence that is opening up new possibilities  
• What areas of their business model leaders need to be thinking of to stay ahead of the curve in light of this new field of technologically that will quickly become the norm 

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Episode Timeline:
00:00—Highlight from today's episode
1:07—Introducing Cathy + the topic of today’s episode
3:58—If you really know me, you know that...
4:21—What's your definition of strategy?
5:30—Cathy's virtual Nasdaq experience
6:40— Clarifying what spatial computing encompasses
10:37—What people often get wrong when envisioning the spatial web 
14:29—How people who grow up with digital experiences think about virtual vs. real world 
16:58—How does supply and demand work with digital goods?
19:42—The opportunity and market size for digital products and goods
21:41—The role and interrelation of AI within the metaverse and spatial computing
24:09—Overlooked business model opportunities for business leaders
26:05—How can people follow you and continue learning from you?
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Additional Resources:
Personal site: https://www.cathyhackl.com/
Book site: Spatial Computing: An AI-Driven Business Revolution
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cathyhackl/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/CathyHackl

Thank you to our guest. Thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff. Thank you for listening.

Follow us at outthinkernetworks.com/podcast

Transcript

Kaihan Krippendorff: Cathy, thank you so much for being here.
 
 It is great to finally have you on the podcast. Where are you joining us from?
 
 Cathy Hackl: I'm in Washington DC, in the Washington DC area.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Excellent. And you grew up as I understand in Costa Rica, is that right?
 
 Cathy Hackl: I can't grew up over the world. Yeah. My dad was a diplomat. Oh. So I'm a diplobrat. And moved around a lot of different places. But then, yeah, my parents were Costa Rican diplomat, so I did spend a lot of time there.
 
 And I'm Costa Rican American. That's gonna help define it. The concept of home is very vague when you grow up in that type of situation.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Got it. And what's your most memorable place that you lived?
 
 Cathy Hackl: Colombia.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Columbia in Bogota or?
 
 Cathy Hackl: Yeah. Bogota. I had a fantastic time. Yeah. It was it was a very it was doing there were a very big conflict that they had.
 
 So it was kind of not necessarily a safe time to live there per se. But regardless, it was a really fun time and had wonderful wonderful memories of it.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Awesome. Awesome. Yeah. It's one my favorite cities in the in the world. Okay.
 
 So we could talk about lots of stuff, but we wanna talk today about spatial computing and AI, and and so let's dive into it. We won't have as much time as I would love to have with you. I wanna start with 2 questions I always begin my podcast with. The first 1 is if you could complete this sentence for me. If you really know me, you know that.
 
 Cathy Hackl: That my children are the best window into the future that I have.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Wow. How old are your children?
 
 Cathy Hackl: I've got 3 kids, 13, 12, and 7. Mhmm. So Jen Alpha. All Jan alpha all the time in my house.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: I love it. I love it. That's great. Second question, what is your definition of strategy?
 
 Cathy Hackl: This is interesting because I feel like there's so many ways to define it, and everyone wants to put, like, this really, like, cerebral definition around it. So I just took a step back from on a macro level, and I said, strategy to me is thinking about the present how to optimize and do things better for the present, while always keeping your vision and your horizon onto the future, but also learning from the past. Because I think in order for you to do really good strategy, yes. You gotta think about the next quarter. But I think you need to think about the next quarter century as well and think about what did we learn the last quarter's century?
 
 So I am a professionally trained futurist. You know, I'm a tech executive, but I always I'm always thinking about, like, how do we make well rounded strategy? Especially in a time when things are moving so incredibly fast from a tech perspective, it's hard. But, you know so thinking about the future, thinking about the thinking about the, you know, the present, the future, but also keeping in mind the past.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: I love that. Yes. I love that. It's so clean and makes so much sense. And I love that you're thinking a quarter century, not 3 years, 5 years, but a quarter century.
 
 Wow. And you said that you are a tech CEO just tell us a little bit about your NASDAQ experience.
 
 Cathy Hackl: Yeah. I have a really great partnership with NASDAQ, and they invited me to be the first human to do the first bell ringing in the metaverse in the virtual space. And so, yeah, June 20 22, we were invited to go open the markets, bring the opening bell both in physical form. So I was there in physical form, but also in avatar form and get this. We did it on live television.
 
 So anything could have gone wrong. Nothing went wrong. It was great. Yeah. They actually they have the memento, actually, of the first building in the metameras as part of their museum.
 
 So, yeah, you know, first, you wanna do it. I'm a woman at Latina. So, like, I really celebrated that moment for women in general.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: That is awesome. And I think writing times square, I remember seeing some videos of that in a view that must have been phenomenal experience. Yeah.
 
 Cathy Hackl: It is quite an experience to actually hit the button and open the markups. It's nerve racking. It's like, whenever I don't hit it correctly, and then you're doing it on live television. It was it was a great experience. Oh, yeah.
 
 I'll take that. I'll take I'll always celebrate that and take that to the grate with me.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Amazing. Alright. So talk to me about metaverse web 3, spatial computing, virtual reality, alternative reality. There are all these terms that I think that 1 thing that we talk a lot about here on the podcast is often it is the naming of the thing that allows people to make sense of the thing, like, Salesforce was talking about not software for a long time, and then someone came with the term with of cloud computing. There's a underlying metaphor that then suddenly it made sense and people adopted.
 
 So why bacial computing and why not metaverse or why both? What what's your view?
 
 Cathy Hackl: Yeah. So I do wanna mention a caveat. People that are listening to this, they might know me, they know me in text circles, they know me as the godmother of the metaverse. Right? And the metaverse has been a victim of its own hype.
 
 The word metaverse, not necessarily what it becomes. So I do wanna mention that. So I want people to kinda, like, take a step back and, like, leave the baggage behind with the word metaverse. Let's not think about that. What I think people need to understand is spatial computing as a broad term.
 
 Many times you'll hear the word the word spatial computing and people use it interchangeably with mixed reality, or an Apple Vision Pro, I personally think that if you're replacing visual computing for 1 single technology or 1 single device, you're being reductive. Because what's truly happening is that you're seeing what you're seeing right now is the expansion of computing. Right? And I'll explain that a little bit for your listeners. What you're seeing right now is that we went from desktop computing, like, computing on our desks, the first computers that we had, to mobile computing, computing that we could take with us everywhere, but, you know, the palm of our hands to now spatial computing.
 
 We're coding is about to break into the physical world, through new devices, through a vision enabled AI, and all these sorts of things. So what you have right here with spatial computing is not 1 single technology or 1 single device. You have a new field of technology that has hardware, software, data, and connectivity. Those are the 4 components. Right?
 
 So it's a bigger concept. Just like mobile computing is a bigger concept. Speech of computing is a bigger concept. Right? So that's where I think it starts to get really interesting when you think about the word metaverse.
 
 Right? I will define spatial computing briefly for people not to get lost. So spatial computing is A3D centric form of new computing that is evolving, that at its core uses AI, computer vision, and extended reality, as well as other technologies to seamlessly blend virtual content into someone's experience of the physical world. It is about to expand computing into everything you can see, touch, no, here, sense. Right?
 
 So it is massively important. It is the moment where human to human communication changes again and the moment where human computer interaction is about to change in new ways. And we can get into that, like, What does that mean when it comes to robotics, autonomous vehicles, all these sorts of things. Right? So computing.
 
 You know, computing has evolved, desktop, mobile, now going to spatial. K? What does that have to do with the metaverse? Because that was your question. It's this.
 
 Every time I spoke with the metaverse, I said, the metaverse is the successor state to today's mobile Internet. Right? What you're starting to see is people use a term spatial web. Alright? So let me make sense of this right now.
 
 We went from the Internet, the connected information, to the mobile web that connected information on the go and allowed us to connect with each other. Now we're going to spatial computing where you're gonna start to connect the physical world and the virtual world together. Right? It's an expansion of the Internet. So spatial web is AKA the metaverse.
 
 Right? So most people don't wanna use the word metaverse. Now you're gonna start to see the word spatial web, spatial Internet kinda take over. So when you're talking about spatial computing, you're talking about the expansion of computing beyond screens. And then you're also talking about the evolution of the web for mobile web to spatial web.
 
 Right? To a web that is gonna be more around us that is gonna allow us as humans to see that virtual layer of data that we can't really see or that we're living through our phones. Mhmm. We're gonna be able to see it in front of us. So So
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: when people visualize that, I would imagine that I won't say we're visualizing it incorrectly, but I think that there are probably some missed conceptions of what that is because we're basing that off of some metaphor that we have of something that exists. What do people often get wrong when they try to envision what the spatial web is.
 
 Cathy Hackl: Yeah. I think that they what people get wrong most of the I think is that they're over indexing on the hardware. Right? They're like, okay. So it's it's you know, they're always thinking about a certain device or they're obsessed with the know, some of the new AI hardware that's coming like the humane AI pin or the r 1 rabbit device or, you know, all these new glasses that are coming whether meta whether it's out provision pro.
 
 So I think that's 1 of the mistakes. People think immediately only hardware because we're so used to consuming the Internet on hardware. Without thinking about this is actually about the creation of, yes, new hardware, and we're gonna see a Cambrian explosion. Of new hardware devices in the next 6 to 6 to 24 months. But you're also gonna see a camera explosion of new software.
 
 Right? So whether it's game engines pushing forward, whether it is LMS, whether it's large vision models, which is what comes after large language models. Whether it is large action models, like, all these sorts of things that are happening in that space. That's all part of the software. You're gonna see also new data types.
 
 And what I mean by that is that you're gonna move away from just 2 d files to, you know, from pixels to voxels, for example, to from regular 2 d video to video that has depth or spatial video.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: So what are voxels?
 
 Cathy Hackl: Voxels. So instead of pixels, these are three-dimensional. Right? So they have more volume. Right?
 
 So it's actually you're able to see things in-depth, and you're gonna be able to see it from every angle. So what happens when you actually break free of the screen is right now, if I'm working on A3D file or something on my computer. I'm still working on it on a flat screen. Right? I'm moving around like it's 3 d, but it's still flat.
 
 When you break into, you know, a device that can actually put that 3 d model in front of you, and you're actually able to walk around it, it's actually 3 d. Right? It becomes volumetric. So so, yeah, you're gonna see new data, new content types. And you're also gonna see connectivity.
 
 You mentioned cloud, for example. I spent some time at AWS working on large scale gaming simulations. In cloud I mean, we're gonna need cloud computing, edge computing, Wi Fi, not even 5 year or 6 year gonna cut it when you're talking about multiple new devices, multiple multiple new hardware and media types operating on these devices. So, yeah, I think that's what people are wrong. People think of only maybe mixed reality or a single device, that's what they're getting wrong.
 
 And then, you know, when people push back and say, well, I don't think the Internet's gonna change up. Like, are you sure? Are you sure that it's gonna remain the way it remains? Because it has evolved. Right?
 
 It has evolved throughout the years, and something is gonna replace the current way we engage with technology.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Fascinating. Yeah. I I gotta get my head around that, but I do I do I see what you mean that the flat interface that I interact with even if it attempts to simulate 3 d environment it still is, like, looking at a moving flat photo. I'm not actually experiencing depth. So it adds a whole another dimension to your experience.
 
 Cathy Hackl: Anyone that's tried the VisionPro, for example, and tried spatial video. You're a developer of
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: as part of the revenue review?
 
 Cathy Hackl: I'm a developer on Apple. Yeah. For for the Apple vision for Apple vision pro experiences. So when you try the device, for example, and you can go into spatial video, you actually see video in it more than 3 d it's in in-depth it has depth sensing. So you feel like you're there, this is even, like, new media content types, new future of the family photo.
 
 I already use the device. You know, I use it for entertainment, but I also use it if I travel quite a bit if I miss my kids. I'll put my Apple Vision Pro and go into videos of them, and I feel like I'm there because there's depth to it. Like, it feels cozier. It feels more natural.
 
 And more human and more connected in that sense.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Wow. Beautiful. So let's talk about kids and the digital people of my generation, you know, I have to have this view that there is real and there is not real. III think in in preparing for this, I stumbled on to a Keanu Reeves video. I think you shared it, yes, on 1 of your speeches.
 
 And he's talking about he's talking to a little girl and I forget that. But, basically, she doesn't care if it's real or not. So talk to us about how do people who grow up with a digital experience, how do they think about the digital experience as relates to the real experience?
 
 Cathy Hackl: The real. I think taking taking a step back and thinking about it in that like, in that sense, like, in for millennials and older, the concept of the real world and the virtual world.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Mhmm.
 
 Cathy Hackl: Right? But if you're Gen Z, which to me is, like, the TikTok generation. If you're Jen Alpha, who are the kids of millennials, for them, it's the physical world and the virtual world. It's all real. It's all continuum.
 
 Right? It whatever happens in that virtual space is equally as real. So I use these 2 examples, 2 very clear examples, and anyone that has kids in their lives are gonna totally relate to this Mhmm. Are the following. First, if my son is playing Fortnite or Roblox and fights with 1 of his friends, if he sees him at school tomorrow, he's gonna be equally mad.
 
 It doesn't matter that it happened in the video game. It happened to him for real. Right? He's still gonna be mad because his house got blown up or whatever. Then the other example is for my son, his first concert was actually during the pandemic, and you ask, how?
 
 Well, it was little NasX in Roblox. Right? So he says, I was there. I saw nods. Like, he was there in avatar form, but he embodies that avatar.
 
 He embodies that experience. And you see that. And another example, I don't use this 1 this 1 is often, but for my kids, the concept of the virtual is very real. If you ask most kids nowadays, you ask them what they want. They'll say, I want v bucks or robots, which are digital currencies, in fact, video games, to buy skins, and to buy virtual items.
 
 I remember 1 of the Christmas Christmas is my son asked me, like, mom, what is aunties so and so gonna give me? And I said aunties so and so was gonna give you 20 dollars. And he immediately made the conversion into robots, which is the digital currency inside the Game Roblox. He can't do that with euros, but he can immediately make the conversion into a digital currency that is of value to him. Right?
 
 So I think for millennials and older, reframing the mindset that the virtual is separated from their life. You know, is important because for the for Gen Z and especially Gen Alpha, this is all part of a continuum. It's all real to them. It all happens. It is all important to them.
 
 So I think it's reframing your mindset a little bit
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: in that sense. So as more of the assets that a company makes are digital, There's no marginal cost to produce them. Right? So many traditional industries are rooted on limited supply. There's only so much oil.
 
 There are only so many diamonds, and I have control over them. So, therefore, its value is supply and demand how does that play out in with digital assets?
 
 Cathy Hackl: Yeah. I mean, you can create scarcity, right, in some ways as and only a certain amount of skins are gonna be giving or it's only a certain amount of virtual tickets to a concert. So you can still create that, you know, illusion of scars it's a little bit different. Right? Because I'll give you an example.
 
 I I actually in the many fun things I've gotten to do in my career, is I got to produce virtual concerts as well inside Roblox. So I produced electric fast for Walmart and worked with Madison Beer, Kane Brown, and Youngblood. On a virtual concert for Walmart. And when we were creating their virtual tour so the things that they're avid wanna wear? We said, okay.
 
 Well, do we wanna create these as skins that everyone can have? Or do we wanna create these just as 1 off virtual guitar moments? So think JLO in the green dress because I think everyone has that picture in their head. We said, let's go with JLO in the green dress where this is a virtual virtual dress or virtual outfit that you think that you use in a specific song, but no 1 else can use it. Right?
 
 It'll be only for that specific moment for in your career. So, yeah, I think that there are ways to create those sorts of things. Right? We could have said, like, oh, let's have everyone dress up in the same skin, and we're the same dress, the beautiful dress that we designed for Madison Beer, virtually. But we didn't.
 
 We said, okay. Let's leave it as an exclusive as a virtual guitar moment. A guitar moment in history just like, you know, not everyone is gonna wear j lo's dress. So same thing. So I think you're starting to see that.
 
 And, yes, I will say creating Kaltura in ones and zeros is a lot easier when you need to make a change. Physical good tour. So there are some benefits in in in things, but you can create some level of scars that if you if you wanted to.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: So who's gonna be the next designer then.
 
 Cathy Hackl: Oh. Yeah. Yeah. I have a famous quote. People know me for it.
 
 Even the folks at Roblox know me. I said and I said this in 20 20. So, like, a long time ago. I said the world's next coco Chanel is probably a 10 year old girl designing skins in Roblox, and I wholeheartedly believe that. So much so that I actually reached out to 1 of my former universities of Florida International University.
 
 And I said,
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: I wanna I teach it for I I teach it all for you as well.
 
 Cathy Hackl: And every year. Yeah. Yeah. I well, I have an endowed scholarship with them.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Wow.
 
 Cathy Hackl: Because they said I wanna be able to fund that that next coco Chanel.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Amazing.
 
 Cathy Hackl: So we created the Kathy Hackle virtual fashion in Dallas dealership to, you know, make sure that we find that talent that wants to design virtually because I truly do believe that there's a huge opportunity there.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: So then talks a little bit about the opportunity because I've seen numbers of the size of the market for digital products and digital goods and that this was, like, 5 years ago and it already blew me away. What how big is that market?
 
 Cathy Hackl: It's massive. And I don't think people give it the respect it deserves. I'm gonna take it more from a gaming perspective because it truly is about virtual economies inside gaming. Game 8 1 in every 3 people in the world considers themselves a gamer. That's huge.
 
 Right? Then also gaming as an industry as a whole is bigger than Hollywood and music combined. Right? I don't think people realize how massive gaming is. And doesn't they don't normally get the gaming as a culture, gaming as a an industry of of influence.
 
 Doesn't get normally be respected deserves or the positioning of the service. I think that's slowly changing. You're starting to see that with Disney investing 1500000.0 in epic games. Netflix going all in on gaming. You're gonna start to see more and more of that, what I call, Yeah.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: I remember, like, in the 2 thousands, everyone was a tech company. Like, every company was Everything dot com. Dot com. Yeah. Yeah. Mhmm.
 
 Cathy Hackl: Right? You know, even, like, company like WeWork. My partner is like, there wasn't a tech company, but you're a tech company. You know, you're gonna start to see that. Like, every company every company is not gonna become a gaming company.
 
 Case in point, very recent New York Times gaming. I mean, the more people are going to New York Times for gaming than they are going for news. And you're starting to see it in their advertisement budgets. Just recently on a flight, I'm sitting down, I'm seeing all the ads before I watch movie, New York Times gaming ad. That's where their ad spend was going.
 
 It wasn't going to promote the news. So I think it's really interesting to watch this moment where gaming as a culture, as an industry of influence, is starting to kinda seep into everyday culture and into more of that corporate America. You're starting to see this. Like, it it's very, very clear to me in the path forward.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: No. No. No. Let's talk about so, you know, early 2000, everything with everyone was a tech company. I feel like now everyone's an AI company.
 
 Cathy Hackl: making Yeah.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Ball bearings, and I'm AI ball bearings. But what what is the contribution to? Or how does AI it into metaverse or spatial computing?
 
 Cathy Hackl: So AI plays a critical role. Like, what's happening in the generative AI right now? We arrive at this moment. With generative AI because a lot of these converging technologies are pushing things forward. Right?
 
 So I don't think we would have arrived at this generative AI moment a couple years ago. We're arriving at on it right now because, you know, data centers can process, like, you know, can process more queries. Like, there's a lot happening. There's been lots of advances. So what is the role of AI here?
 
 AI is critical for enabling that next computing platform, that next computer iteration. 1 thing that I think people are not thinking about, and I think to me is incredibly interest thing is the fact that pretty soon, I think in a year or 2, large language models are gonna run out of data from the Internet. They're they're gonna have consumed everything that there was. Or has been created. Right?
 
 They're that's they can go through the all app data. Right? So where are we gonna train AI from? In the future when that happens. Right?
 
 We're gonna have to train it from real time data of new devices, scanning the physical world in real time. Right? That's where a space of computers
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: So IOT connected devices and bannables, wearables, and Everything.
 
 Cathy Hackl: Everything. It's gonna that's when AI goes from goes from, like, something we engage with on our, you know, on our computers or our phones. Because right now, if you're using chat GPT, like, you and I were talking, you're gonna use it on your phone or your computer, you know, and everything. But eventually, you're gonna want, you know, you're gonna want your AI to kinda come with you and do things. And actually, have perspective and context and be useful to you in the physical world and truly do things for you or see things.
 
 Right? So I think that that is the next iteration that is coming with AI. Large language models, you know, even the store, for example, has trained on things for the past. Videos that were created, pictures that were taking, drawings that were made, articles that were written, all that stuff. You know?
 
 III don't have visibility into all the training data, but, you know, I'm assuming. So, you know, once once you can have AI that is vision enabled and can be trained in real time. That's why I think you have a huge unlock for AI that will be very, very useful AI that can truly be helpful to us in the physical world. So, yeah, like, it's this this is a moment of convergence. Moment of all these things converging.
 
 And if you're only this is the thing that drives me. That's If you're only thinking about large language models, you're missing the point you're missing the point of how transformational this moment is when it comes to web, when it comes to computing. It comes to everything kinda coming together.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Yeah. So I can imagine that companies are sort of naturally myopically focusing on certain aspects. Right? Because maybe they're just looking at 1 they're just looking at virtual reality and not thinking about how blockchain layers on that and how digital customers layer on that. I can think, well, we only have a few more minutes with you.
 
 But if we look at the business model, there are new ways of delivering value. There are new types of assets that you create. There are new ways of organizing, there are new ways of interacting with your customer. So what would you say is the area of the business model that companies Maybe aren't thinking about, but should be thinking about.
 
 Cathy Hackl: There's 2 things here. 1 is new content types. Right? So we're gonna see an unlock Yes. You're gonna see new hardware.
 
 You're gonna see new content types. Right? So if you're a media company and I know there's a doll a lot of doom and gloom about, like, a traditional media company, you're about to go into a world where there's voxels. There's volumetric video. There's spatial video.
 
 New content formats that we have never seen before. Then the other thing is something related to what you're, you know, working on, which is proximity. Right? What and this is this is I want people to listen to this and listen to it twice. When everything within eyesight and ears shut of you becomes real estate, how does that change how you deliver a servicer product?
 
 Once again, within when everything within eye side or ear shut off, it becomes real estate, how do you deliver your service and product? Because that is what is about to happen. When computing expands into the physical world, everything around this becomes a spatial interface. Right? We're not just gonna be consuming it on our phones.
 
 It's gonna be all around us. That data layer becomes visual. So that is a critical moment for thinking about how am I delivering my service or my product, in real time at the point where that person is at. So huge implications.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Fascinating. Oh my gosh. Alright. Well, I I'm gonna encourage people to of course, buy your book. We're recording this before it's out, but it'll be out soon.
 
 We've written other books as well. You've got great content. You've got an amazing podcast. I listened to a bunch of your interviews just fascinating. I my opening.
 
 How would you suggest people continue to learn from you and stay connected with you.
 
 Cathy Hackl: Yeah. Definitely, you know, check out my podcast. It's on the Adweek podcast network Tech Magic. It's called Tech Magic with Cathy Hackl And then LinkedIn, I share a lot of great content.
 
 I put out a lot of useful free content out there. So for example, I commissioned Harvard to do a study on generation alpha that's free and available on the Internet. I have a mini book called a wearable world as well that's free on the Internet. And then, yeah, my book special computing and AI driven business revolution is coming out May fourteenth.
 
 Kaihan Krippendorff: Awesome. Well, Kathy, I know we didn't get to cover everything that we could cover. It is fascinating, and thank you for stepping out the future for us and thinking, making sense of this future for us and bringing it to us. Thanks for the work you do and for sharing some of that here. It was so great to have your clients.
 
 Thank you. Thank you to our guests. Thank you to our executive producer, Karina Reyes, our editor, Zach Ness, and the rest of the team. If you like what you heard, please follow, download, and subscribe. I'm your host, Kaihan Krippendorff.